Victorian bushfires 2009

Just heard on the news that police have charged a 31yr old man for starting the fire at Peats Ridge... Hope they throw the book at him & whatever else they can pick up...

Most Australians appreciate the horror - for, indeed, there is no other word that comes closest to decribing how Australians, especially, react to the nature of the tragedy - of bushfires in this country. Perhaps there's something particularly special about bushfires, I don't know, and that might be why, when we hear of widespread destruction by fire overseas that we feel a particular affinity for those who suffer as a result of the devastation caused by it. But, I truly believe, nothing can prepare you for this, perhaps the worst of nature's dangers to the community - far worse than flood, storm, plague or famine, heat or drought. Fire is relentless, unforgiving and non-discriminating.

I grew up listening to tales my mother told me about "Black Friday", January 13, 1939. I suppose, over the years, I compared the fires that I grew up with with the Black Friday fires. If anything, though, I've learned that it's a dangerous thing to make comparisons because when you've actually lived through a fire it doesn't matter if it destroyed 200,000 hectares or 2,000,000 hectares - and just how big is that, anyway?

Well, 2 million hectares is mind-bogglingly big. 2 million hectares is 20,000 square kilometres, that is, an area 200 kilometres by 100 kilometres. It's an area the size of the entire country of Wales, or a quarter the size of Ireland, one-sixth the size of Florida or one-thirieth the size of Texas/France/Alberta. 2million hectares is one-tenth of the size of the state of Victoria and that's how much property was destroyed by fire on "Black Friday" 1939.

Today we read of estimates of property loss in Victoria in the order of 300,000 hectares (about 15% of the area affected 70 years ago), but that does not make it any less tragic. In 1939 whole communities were wiped out, more than 650 buildings were lost and 71 people lost their lives. Until now, this was the worst fire tragedy in Australia's history.

I remember the bushfires in Canberra only 6 years ago: standing on the roof of my home, dousing the roof-tiles with water, watching the fire-front advancing over the hilltops less than 2 kilometres from where I lived. Canberra lost 500 homes that day but, thankfully, only 4 people died.

This is why, hearing the stories of the terrible losses to life and property in Victoria, it really brings it home to me. Current estimates about the Victorian fires put housing losses at up to 700 homes destroyed and 108 people confirmed dead. Like I said before, we shouldn't be making comparisons, but it does help to tell others of what these figures actually mean in human terms.

I have also collected several discussions from The Quoroom under this one discussion topic. Please feel free to contribute your own thoughts on the matter as you wish.

sozz :MSN:

I have to apologise again for, it seems, I've managed to single-handedly lose a lot of messages that people have posted to The Quoroom in the past couple of days concering the Victorian bushfires. Fortunately, I have some kind of back-up but not, unfortunately, enough to restore everything:

Here are a few of the messages that I was able to salvage:

ConcertForGeorgeNut wrote "In The News" ¤ 08 Feb 07:22

How's the bushfire situation going for everybody ? Based on the news I'm reading, it's a pretty bad scene in some places. Things are OK here (Mid North Coast, NSW).

Tushy wrote "In The News" ¤ 08 Feb 08:24

Bushfires ( www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25023335-1243,00.html ) -- these bushfires are a shocker George == the closest I have been to bushfires was 2002/2003 and my God I really felt for these people :(

sozzled wrote "Victorian bushfire appeal" 08 Feb 10:37:

Memsahib and I have been following the news about the current, and unrelenting, bushfire disaster that's hitting many parts of Australia but which seems to be hardest felt in northern and eastern Victoria. There's not a great deal that many of us can do but watch helplessly. However I felt that I should try to do my small part in all of this, and that is why I have placed, on The Quoroom's home page, a link to the Australian Red Cross.

If The Quoroom can assist these people then, leaving aside anything else we might do, I think this is an appropriate community response.

Those of us who have been affected by natural disasters in the past are well aware of the horrors that people are currently facing. I think that we, who are reasonably well-placed to contribute, must do what we can with our time, money or whatever else we can spare to help those in their time of greatest need. We have many areas in Australia, at the moment, where people are having it tough: those who are battling the floods in Queensland, the extremes of heat in South Australia, fires in NSW and the ever-present drought conditions across the whole country. I'm not suggesting that any of these is more important than any other but, if I have to choose one that screams out for immediate support then let it be this one.

A lot of different organisations have established ways for people to help those who have been affected by the current Victorian bushfire disaster. I am asking you to go to the Australian Red Cross website, to make a cash donation, by clicking the image below:

ConcertForGeorgeNut wrote "In The News" ¤ 08 Feb 11:26

Jeez. I've just come back home from doing some chores, and checked into the ABC (Australia) news site to discover that, so far, 25 people have lost their lives in these bushfires. This is a definite tragedy, but it's times and situations like these that tend to bring us closer together as a community and as a country.

Tushy wrote in her "space" ¤ 08 Feb 20:52

I am in shock I can't believe this is happening So many people have died and so many more still to be found.. I feel sick to the stomach..

Last night when I went to sleep, I could smell burning wood - and those fire memories came back to me 2002/2003 -- never would I have thought I would have woken up to thiis.. My friend moved from St Andrews to near me a year ago... and has lost so many people/friends, she is a basket case : ( I work with a few people that live in that area where the fire is -- near Kinglake -- I will be surprised if they are at work tomorrow Its just awful... Now the fire is heading towards Kiewa which is where we were at the 2002/2003 fire - those kids have already been through this once.. 76 people and climbing .. I am numb and I feel sick......

When I tried to collect all the various discussions that sparked off (my apologies for the pun) by the recent bushfires in Victoria, I had created a discussion topic that was concerned with the punishment for those who deliberately start bushfires. Perhaps it's not particularly appropriate to be considering the question of punishing those who had something to do with creating the current tragedy in Victoria, but it will certainly be on a lot of people's minds in the weeks to come.

My original message was this:

There probably isn't a crime against society that stirs as much universal condemnation of the offender as the crime of deliberately starting a bushfire ... and there's probably no greater crime against the community as the deliberate starting of a bushfire that causes lives to be lost.

I think that I'm a compassionate man. I don't believe in capital punishment. I don't always think the justice system gets it right; sometimes the punishment that's handed down is inadequate (in terms of meeting the community's expectations) and sometimes the punishment is extremely severe. I'm not sure whether I agree with mandatory sentencing because it goes against my feelings that our system of justice ought to be a compassionate one. However, there's one crime in this country that stands apart from all others because it affects the whole community, because it\'s so outrageously anti-social and that the community needs to be protected from those who dare commit it.

The way the law currently stands, those who are convicted of starting a bushfire can be sentenced to 14 years if "property is damaged with the intention of injuring a person" , and "a maximum penalty of 25 years imprisonment can be applied to a person who maliciously damages property with the intention of endangering life". I think it's fair to argue that the courts are only likely to impose such lengthy prison sentences if the offenders are adults.

Let's be clear about this. These terms are not designed to act as a deterrent to others who might think the idea of destroying lives and property, or tying up the community's resources in trying to extinguish what they started, is amusing. There's nothing amusing about losing everything you've spent your life trying to build up or watching everyone around you in the same catastrophic mess. The fact is, as I've always said, that the threat of punishment doesn't seem to work as a deterrent ... otherwise why do we still have people starting bushfires year after year? No, the point is that we need to be protected from these evil doers.

I know that there are "degrees" of evil: some bushfires start through no fault of anyone's; some fires start because someone was careless or reckless (like throwing a burning cigarette butt from a car window). Sometimes a supposedly "controlled" fire gets out of control. These things are unfortunate ... although I think that those who flick a cigarette butt from a car window ought to be given a tough penalty that will make them think twice about doing it again. However, while I'm sure there would be little disagreement that an adult offender, convicted of the crime of maliciously starting a bushfire that resulted in loss of life, should be given a 25-year sentence, what if the offender was under the age of 18 years?

I was talking to Memsahib last night, as we watched the TV news reports about the bushfires in Victoria that the authorities are claiming were deliberately started, and I said that I had no sympathy for those who committed these awful crimes ... even if they were children. I think that, even children, they should all received the same punishment ... not to send a message to others that we won't tolerate this kind of behaviour but simply because I don't think they'll learn the lesson otherwise.

What do you reckon?

Ezygoing07 wrote "Punishing those who deliberately start bushfires"¤ 02 Feb 20:55 (Ezygoing07)

Interesting question, sozzled. I think that with the technology available today the offenders can be identified by DNA in the case of cigarettes or so I’m led to believe. The arsonists I suppose I would refer to the person that deliberately starts fires for some perverse reasons or enjoyment (which I fail to comprehend). Causes both property damage and in some cases death of a person. This person should incur the full wrath of the law including losing their own assets in an attempt to appease the victims.

If the arsonist was not an adult then the law needs to address this problem, I feel that the punishments could be at a few levels:

• Firstly if the teen started the fire deliberately and this can be proven without doubt then the child should be detained in detention for minors with possible transfers to adult jails when adulthood is reached.
• Second, If the minor did not deliberately start the fire or it accidentally occurred then perhaps restitution could be made in the minor being interred as a unpaid worker and assist victims to rebuild their homes and lives for as long as it takes to achieve this end.
• Third if the minor started the fire to show off or fun (again I’m at a loss as how this could be conceived), then the punishment should be a combination of both points 1 & 2 according to severity of the loss.

Each of these scenarios would only be applicable for loss of property etc not loss of life. If loss of life occurs then the sentences should apply to juveniles in the same manner as adults and the laws should be enacted to cover juveniles in this area. I don’t necessarily like or agree with the sentences meted out by the judicial system, but until the system can be upgraded to cover crimes against communities in this form we have to trust in the system and hope the more learned solicitors, barristers, magistrates and law makers can change the laws and apply these laws in future.

It's too horrifying to mention the death toll in these fires because it's growing at in an unrelenting manner and I wish it would stop ... but I know that it won't. I fear the worst.

Some people might be interested in seeing a real-time map of the bushfire situation in Victoria, updated with information supplied by the Country Fire Authority: go to mapvisage.appspot.com/fires/FireMap.html

In the meantime, here's another reminder for people to visit the Australian Red Cross site - which, by the way, is itself struggling to cope with the demand from people to donate money to the bushfire appeal.

Yeah its all very sad Sozz -- I was so happy to see my co workers were ok.........

Its got to the point now where yes you care about your house but as long as you are alive is all we are thinking -- one has lost her house in Glenburn - she only has the clothes she is wearing......

The other spent the whole weekend watching the fire across the road burn other houses and fighting embers - she is just out of Kinglake and they are safe for the moment..

The one from Yarra Glen -- all the north was burnt but they are now and the family in Kiewa being evacuated as we speak as the wind has brought the fire back.. its awful

My friend that used to live in St Andrews was telling me, they got 6 minutes warning to get out -- if anyone knows St Andrews its a small tight knit community

I really hope they find who lit these fires -- I recon they should put them in there and see how they get out alive..

makes me fume

I have not been closely following the general media coverage of the fires. I have been closely following the rising number of deaths, but that's only because I'm a numbers person. I saw a few minutes on the telly last night. It was reported that several sporting organisations (eg Aussie cricket team, NZ cricket team, National Rugby League, National Soccer League) were all kicking some money into various appeals for the bushfire victims.

Its just devestating everytime you open the news page and you see those numbers : (
I am alot better now than I was on Sunday -- My God -- I couldnt stop crying as all the info kept coming in and talking to friends, but I know its not over yet as those fires are still rampant

I just get so angry inside now at the thought that they were deliberately lit and what these people are going through..

Most had and have NO chance as the smoke is just SHOCKING - roads are blocked -- its awful : (

Our local hospitals now are taking them in as its over flow in the city........

I have created a group on facebook with updates etc..if you are on facebook could you please join us.
I feel so very sad for this loss from the bushfires

www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=165332766...d=54851122372&ref=mf

I understand that, for the next few days at least, it will be quite difficult for many of our members to contribute in any sense to this community. That's quite acceptable. I, too, am having a lot of difficult maintaining my own outward mood of calm and my usual joviality. I think to myself how totally unfair all of this is: I'm free from danger or the threat of danger, alive and well and without a care in the world, and yet, a mere stone's throw away, others have lost everything!

The bushfires have brought out the best in so many people. Thank you, suth, for posting the link to your Facebook site which we can see.

As I mentioned yesterday, I don't want to post progress reports about the rising death toll. There will be a final cost in terms of the loss of human life and, I suppose, I'm preparing myself for the worst. None of us, I'm sure, wants to speculate what the final figure might be. We hope that the final figure will not be larger than the number - whatever it is - that was last reported but we sadly expect the number to grow.

There is, however, one statistic that I hope will grow: the amount of money that has been raised by the Australian Red Cross bushfire appeal. A short while ago (less than 2 hours) the estimate was that 60,000 people have donated $10.4 million - which is roughly $180 each. Whether you donate $2 or $200, whatever you can spare will help those who cannot help themselves at the moment. I don't know how much difference our donation will make; we wish we could have given more.

Memsahib is a registered blood donor. I'm very proud of her and I'm ashamed to admit that, although I don't have a fear of the sight of blood, I'm don't handle well the sight of my own blood. Maybe I should follow her example and give blood, too.